Activating more grip

"gettingoldercarguy" (gettingoldercarguy) 08/14/2020 at 13:26 • Filed to: None

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My wife’s outback is typically utilized for family trips and she makes am outstanding effort to find the twisties for me on the journey. The handling, its good, if safe. Looking at changing it up.

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Going to start with the 22mm sway bar kit and go from there. Maybe front camber bolts. I know it won’t be a superb handling car, but this should be a case of a little going a long way. Any other suggestions? I’m aware of pedders springs and uprated bilstein dampers and I’ll consider those shortly.

Sovande > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 13:41

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Are you keeping it at the stock ride height? 8" of ground clearance is nice but not exactly great for handling. I’d probably lower it before adding a bigger rear sway. Then I’d add the biggest sway bar they have for the rear. And maybe a bigger front one as well. I’d imagine that the Outback understeers and a bigger sway bar should help it rotate some.

It's a CUV, it's going to drive like a CUV. 

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 13:42

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Hmm, has anybody actually made one handle? I would puzzle that before spending much in the way of money. As an example, I am not sure of the bushings and roll center on an outback, you may find stiffening it doesn’t improve handling very much.

So I think you need to figure out what you don’t like about the handling before throwing fixes at it. Example, if you turn in and it is mush, is it too tall tires on narrow rims? Or is it really soft bushings on a strut suspension meaning the outer wheel is going positive camber.

Remember, it’s top heavy, high ride height, and long wheelbase. It aint a WRX......

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 13:43

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How old/miles?

Without going crazy could bushing etc,  use a Stock replacement?

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 08/14/2020 at 13:48

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Yeah, keeping the stock ride height. Camping expeditions involve logging roads. Dialing out the understeer is the first goal. Rear sway bar from a wrx is a very popular and effective mod on the outbacks.

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/14/2020 at 13:52

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Rear sway bar from a wrx is a very popular and effective mod on the outbacks.

I understand I’m not doing time trials etc. I am trying to make it a bit more enjoyable in the twisties. No, it won’t be my wrx. But I’m not spending  over ( just checked my spreadsheet) 10k on chassis work either like I did with that car.

I’ll look at bushings after I play with the rear bar, I haven’t calculated the roll center. Looking at low hanging fruit.

gettingoldercarguy > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/14/2020 at 13:56

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34k miles

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 08/14/2020 at 14:01

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I’m worried what the 24 will be like on the ice, etc. 22 is a safe bet and if it is too much, I’ll swap it out for the 20.

Sovande > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 14:03

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Good luck!

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 08/14/2020 at 14:06

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Thanks! Ordered and I’ll review once installed and tested.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 14:07

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Spies Like Us  is so good. 

Sovande > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 14:07

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What does ice have to do with a rear sway bar?  

In my old C30 and my current V60, the aftermarket rear sways have been stiff enough that when turning into or out of a steep driveway, the inside rear tire stays off the ground.  So If I am turning right, the right rear stays off the ground.  

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 14:08

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Its a puzzler what the rear bar would help with. I suppose the back end takes bite earlier, maybe does more work turning, but still a puzzler. Send a report. 

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > RacinBob 08/14/2020 at 14:42

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Keep in mind he’s going for fun not raw performance. I know some cars removing a  sway bar creates more grip, but it may not feel great

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/14/2020 at 14:45

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Will do!

https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/19mm-sway-bar.195818/

It’ll definitely dial out understeer/induce oversteer.  Hopefully not too much!

TorqueToYield > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 15:36

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tires.

if you actually want more grip get the stickiest summer tires that will fit.

everything else might make it feel like it’s handling better, but good tires will make the most difference right away.

You might also look at lighter wheels or different wheel/tire/sidewall combos.

Outback is def heavily weighted toward more suspension travel vs body lean. Personally I’d rather have a suspension that can eat punishing pot holes, do light soft-roading  vs less body lean.

gettingoldercarguy > TorqueToYield 08/14/2020 at 15:45

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Yeah, I agree with tires and more of them. I also believe you should dial in the your suspension around the intended tire. With that being said, we just put on a new set of tires on the car, so the summer/winter set will have to wait.

The car will gladly take 255s in the correct size.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 19:08

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As I say its a puzzler to me. Inducing overstear means you are sliding the back end. Som ething that I am not sure you want to do in an outback. And a big enuogh bar tends to pick up the inside wheel. Not sure I like that too .

Granted, your transient response might be better. Not sure how that feels. Stiffining rear bars is good for a FWD car. It is not good for a RWD car. Does an outback want to be a FWD car? I just don’t know.

My parents have a couple of outbacks which I’ve driven mostly to church with them riding shotgun. It’s very good for that. How I would make it sporting? I would think tires first, maybe rims, and then who knows.

Please note that I am not critical, I am just really not clear how I would attack the problem. Good luck and write lots of reports.

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/14/2020 at 19:22

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I agree with wheels and tires,but we just purchased a set of new tires,so that’s a no go. The outback is primarily fwd and it behaves much like typical Subarus with understeer the order of the day. The sway bar is there to help dial this out. There’s nothing wrong with three wheeling it. A trip to an autocross will show you just that as I’m sure you well know. If the chassis is balanced with it in mind, it is ok. If it is understeering with all wheels planted, this may very well be the solution.

I don’t take what you’re saying personally,everybody has a slightly different way of setting up a car.

I’m excited to see how this will work out, I'll keep you and the rest of oppo updated.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/14/2020 at 20:03

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been t hree wheeling asking the guy who raced rabbits and CRX’s?

I think for road cars, the most G’s people would see is on an off ramp...

How much you can improve road handling for that kind of driving really isn’t much in my opinion without working with tires and sidewalls.

But I do think you can improve response, how sporty it feels. If I wanted sporty feel, I would wonder if a front bar would be better? Improve turn in?

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/14/2020 at 21:09

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The problem with a larger front bar is it’ll just give me more understeer and that is the opposite of what I want. Having the car a bit more neutral and easier to rotate or at least not plow through the corner will be a welcome  change. I’m not worried about a huge increase in grip, but there’ll be higher limits overall by balancing out the chassis. The key for me is more fun in the twisties. You’re right on the tires, I run a 265 square setup on my wrx and am considering going to a 285 or 305 square with a bit more fender.

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/15/2020 at 04:31

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Here’s a good series on chassis tuning.

https://motoiq.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-suspension-and-handling-part-3-balance-the-chassis/3/

This describes what I’m doing,and the entire series is good for how to start setting up your car.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/15/2020 at 11:11

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Yep. I understand the concepts. Part of the story though those rules apply to a well set up race car. There you are trying to tune which end breaks free first and how dramtically it does so. Your car is a well tuned comfort car, I think you have a lot of work before those rules are relevent.

Here is how I’d approach it. I attack the corner I don’t like first which per you is the front end. Get it to work because if you make it work , maybe the back oversteer will happen automatically as it now has comparative less grip.

So what I would do is get someone to photograph the front inside tire at full load and see what it looks like, If you find it is positive camber, fix that first. Hence the suggestion of the front bar. If it is the tire is totally mushed over, raise the pressure. Until it looks right, it cannot work right.

My experience is that front bars on street cars only work in the last 20% of travel because their bushings are very soft. The reason they are soft is because consumers do not like the noise the main bushings transmit. If you have to much sway= Positive camber, I would look at a set of bushings 1st, then links, then a bigger bar may make an improvement.

Againn get a picture and work on the problem. Don’t stop till the front looks right at load. On my Improved touring rabbit, while everybody else worked on the back end to improve rotation, I worked on the front end to improve stiction. And when I did improve it , the back end was just as good. Meanwhile I could carry far more speed into and through turns.

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/15/2020 at 12:58

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That’s great advice on setting up the car. Right now I’m not looking to take the front apart quite yet. I’ll have more grip overall if I follow your path, but I’m looking at balance first and the inherent grip from that balance second . This is a relatively quick install that I can further refine down the road.

I don’t want to run massive camber (2+ degrees) on my wife’s car up front to counter the nose heaviness. It’ll affect the tire wear too much from the majority of driving we do.

I will get the bushings and links for the front most likely.  The whiteline bushings have feathered ptfe linings like a lot of factory bushings.  No squeak.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/15/2020 at 15:03

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By the way, I am kind of making this up so it is far from scientific. B ut it is based on 4o years of setting up race cars etc.

What I will say is the term balance means different things to different people. There is the term lets call it dynamic balance, which I’ll describe as a corner’s resistance to roll for both front and rear . The stiffer the corner, the more instantly a corner can accept cornering forces. Thats why if you make the front stiff and the rear soft, to a limit the car feels like it is turning in too well. This is because a stiff front front has had it’s weight transfer while a soft rear just keeps rolling. The result is the driver feels like the rear is not doing its part. If your rear is too soft, a rear bar may help dynamic balance. I think dynamic balance is what most street drivers think of with their street cars.

There is a second kind I will name as race car balance. That describes what end starts sliding first of when a racecar is fully loaded on a turn.. The link you are talking about is race car balance. To understand race car balance, you make the end you want to slide first proportionately the stiffest. Bat wait, you think if I want it to slide why do that if “ stiffer is better, right?”

The reason stiffness makes an end slide is though they feel great, when they break the limit of adhesion, there is no bounceback to re-establish traction. Instead the tire just goes skittering sideways witho ut control.

That’s why I commented on the rear bar. It seems for 30 years, people have been swearing that monster rear bars are the solution to FWD handling. I’ve run B series Honda’s since the 90's and these cars came with stock 350# rear springs. For years people were going up to 1200 pound rears and they were swearing buy them. I tried them too, and found I was slower and had to work a lot harder at keeping the back end behind me. But boy did it feel good and fast! I went back to softer springs and it was easier to drive and faster.

2 years ago at the track there was a young guy with a CRX so I wandered over to talk with him and asked him his setup and times . His time’s were in the 26's which is not awesome in a CRX. He said has was driving the pants off of the car. and s ure enough he had 1000 pound rear spr ings.

I sent him a set of old 700 pound rear springs and all the sudden he’s in the low ‘25's and the car is a lot easier to drive. Now maybe an indy car driver would be faster with 1200 pound rears but for us mere mortals, stiffer is not always better.

Anyway, think about the problem you are trying to solve. Is it dynamic balance (roll weight management) or is it skidpad balance (tire squeal ). Then to understand the causes as seen on your car and act accordingly,

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/15/2020 at 18:48

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I appreciate the advice and just chatting with you. I plan on doing a  subjective and objective review of this. I plan on a slalom and skidpad with data points. Hopefully I can get some space to test.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/15/2020 at 20:05

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Thanks. BTW the reason for the original posting is I really find the popular idea of big rear bars and rear springs are great to be ill advised.

Sure it is a hoot to transform a car into a canyon carving tail sliding beast. But nobody mentions that enough stiffness to make the rear wheels slide on your favorite c loverleaf is also enough stiffness to turn your car a vicious tail happy beast in rain or snow or in emergency maneuvers. Be careful what you wish for!

Personally I’ve always tuned my endurance race cars on the soft side. Softer may give up some tenths per laps. B ut it sure makes that up in handling forgiveness when the trouble begins. Good luck on the project and report back often.

Also, one other thought. You kind of have to be careful applying big d iameter arms and hard bushings in stock locations. One of the things about stock sway bars is that they generally have short arms which means the angulations goes to hell at the extreme of travel. I think the manufa ctures know that and cheat by using small bushings.

The problem is that when you put a bigger diameter bar and good bushings the bar starts binding at limits to travel. And when the bar binds, the spring rate goes to infinity, and you get oversteer. This is cool for autocross but not cool for high G roadrace turns or emergancies on the highway,

My Type R race car had a “ johnny go fast” huge rear bar and it would snap oversteer at the worst moments, I got around to putting my aftermarket spe edway reat engineering bar onto it. The speedway that had 14" arms instad of 6" arms and was actually stiffer than the other bar, But it was linear through full travel and as a res ult the car was instantly trustworthy at the limit..

Here’s a blox rear bar that fits into the stock location. It will bind at limit of travel with performance bushings.

Speedway bar. Note you need to put nee bar brackets on the car because it sits about 12" further back than the stock location. But the advantage is that it does not bind..... 

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/15/2020 at 21:19

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Yes, I understand and agree with the “all the spring rates” fallacy and I’ll be apprehensive with how this handles in the wet and especially the snow.

I set my cars up for hillclimb/back roads and not road course or autocross, especially with the alignment.

The outback has a metric shit tonne of understeer dialed into it from the factory. Noticeably more than the wrx and sti which both have substantially larger rear bars with similar geometry. The kit I got my wife’s outback is actually designed for and fits the wrx and sti. Digressing a bit, but I really love that about Subarus, the cross platform compatibility.

Torsion sway bars are gorgeous, functional and a slightly higher price point unfortunately. I know all sway bars are functionally torsion springs, but, yeah. Why I went with dfv instead of ttx ohlins. Money and availability.  

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/15/2020 at 22:23

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You know, I say not all the spring rate, but this is going from a 16 to a 22 (three way adjustable).

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/Update%20BL-281.pdf

Quite a bit percentage change. The only comfort I have is that most people report the 20 is still benign. We’ll see.

RacinBob > gettingoldercarguy 08/16/2020 at 00:34

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what year outback?

gettingoldercarguy > RacinBob 08/16/2020 at 01:06

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2015